S10:E4: The Senseless Murder of Ebony Byrom (38) "Without Warning"

⚠️Content Warning: This episode includes discussion of domestic violence, emotional abuse, and descriptions of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 

Macomb Township, Michigan— On October 1, 2016,  38-year-old Ebony Byrom called 911 during a domestic dispute with her husband, 44-year-old Hal Byrom. Ebony told dispatchers that her husband needed to leave before the situation escalated. 

But help did not arrive in time. While Ebony was still on the phone with 911, Hal opened fire, killing her inside their home.

Ebony's teenage son was also inside the house at the time and later called 911 himself. After shooting Ebony, Hal turned the gun on himself in what prosecutors later described as a failed murder-suicide attempt. 

Ebony’s murder is a devastating reminder that domestic violence does not always look chaotic from the outside. Sometimes the person in danger is doing everything right — calling for help, staying calm, asking the abuser to leave — and still, the violence finds them. This case is not just about a failed murder-suicide. It is about control, escalation, and the horrifying reality that for many victims, the most dangerous moment comes when they try to survive.

Rest in Peace - Ebony Byrom 🙏🕊️🕯️

If you or someone you love is experiencing domestic violence, or if you feel unsafe in your relationship, please know that help is available. You do not have to wait until things become physical to reach out. Contact The National Domestic Violence Hotline 24/7/365 at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233), text the word START to 88788, or visit TheHotline.org. If you are in immediate danger, call 911. Your safety matters, your fear is valid, and support is available when you are ready.

If you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988 in the U.S. to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

This podcast contains graphic details which may be disturbing to some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. I'm Chantel B and welcome back to the show. Now, today's case takes us to Macomb County, Michigan, to a heartbreaking domestic violence case that forever changed a Michigan family and the local community. On October 1st, 2016, 38-year-old Ebony Byron calmly called 911 from her condo during a domestic dispute with her husband, 44-year-old Hal Byron. Throughout the call, Ebony told dispatchers that she simply wanted her husband to leave the home before the situation escalated. But within mere minutes, the terrifying sound of gunshots erupted through the phone line. This isn't just a heartbreaking domestic violence case, but it's a story of a compassionate nurse, a devoted mother, and a woman whose final moments were captured during a chilling 911 call. What began as an argument inside a quiet condo would quickly turn into a deadly crime scene that shocked both investigators and the community. Behind those doors of that condo, tensions were already rising inside a troubled marriage that had been building for some time. Friends and neighbors who knew the couple later admitted that they never expected for this relationship to end in such horrific violence. Many described the couple as quiet and respectful, making this tragedy even more difficult to understand. But as investigators worked to piece together the events of that night, that nine one recording became one of the most haunting parts of the investigation. That call captured Ebony trying to prevent the argument from spiraling out of control, but she was unaware that her life was only moments away from ending in senseless violence. What exactly happened inside the condo that night? And why did that argument escalate so suddenly? And how did a calm request for help become the final moments of Ebony Byron's life? But before we get into the gruesome details of this case, we must first honor how Ebony lived. Ebony Byron was born on july sixteenth, nineteen seventy eight in Detroit, Michigan. Now Ebony was a 38-year-old nurse. Caretaking and nurturing was her calling. Her passion was nursing and caring for those who cannot care for themselves. But Ebony was also the mother of a sixteen-year-old son. People who knew Ebony described her as vibrant, compassionate and empathetic. She was known as someone who genuinely cared about others, and her caring personality reflected that both in her personal life and in her work as a nurse. Nursing, caring for others and nurturing was Ebony's calling, and she woke up every day with purpose and passion. Now Ebony came from a large family, and she was one of eleven siblings. Family was an important part of Ebony's life, and she shared a strong bond with not only her siblings, but her large family. Now those closest to her knew her as someone who valued family connections and she maintained close relationships with everyone in her circle. At some point, Ebony met Hal Byron. He was a forty four year old United States postal worker. Now the two dated for a few months before deciding to get married. After getting married and settling into married life, Ebony and Hal bought a condo together in McComb County, Michigan. Now from the outside, the relationship appeared normal, and the couple began building a life together, one that they enjoyed and one that they bonded over. However, the marriage faced ongoing conflicts from the very beginning. Now much of the tension between the couple was said to revolve around financial matters. There were arguments surrounding money that became a recurring issue and problems between the two continued to grow over time as the relationship became increasingly strained. Halbiram was also known for being possessive and for having a short temper. According to reports, he wanted to keep a close eye on what Ebony was doing at all times, even while she was at home. At some point, Hal installed numerous home surveillance cameras throughout the condo. The cameras reportedly allowed him to monitor different areas of the condo, and this added more tension to the already troubled marriage. Ebony felt she had no freedom. Her every move was being watched. Everywhere she ventured off into the home, Hal was watching, but this calls more and more attention. Soon after, most of Ebony's friendships began to fade. Hal became increasingly controlling, therefore Ebony started to isolate herself from family and friends. Ebony had no idea that the disputes with her husband would eventually lead to devastating repercussions. But as the problems inside the marriage continued escalating, the fights over money, the battle over control, over being constantly surveilled. This continued to escalate in the marriage and it became a boiling point for Ebony. Now she eventually contacted police after things reportedly got out of hand. There were instances where Hal physically assaulted Ebony when she would not bow down to whatever he wanted. There were times that Hal was verbally abusive and she was reaching a breaking point. The marriage soured quickly, and she eventually contacted police after things reportedly got out of hand. Now at the time Ebony was trying to prevent the situation from becoming even worse, but she was unaware of how tragic the situation would later become, that the man who took a vow to love her would eventually take her life. On Saturday, October 1st, 2016, dispatchers from the Macomb County Sheriff's Department received a call from a woman reporting a domestic situation involving her husband. That caller was 38-year-old Ebony Byram. Throughout the 911 call, Ebony sounded calm as she spoke with the dispatcher. Now the 911 call starts with Ebony telling her husband Hal that he needed to leave the home. You could hear the argument as it was unfolding inside the condo. You could hear Ebony repeatedly saying to her husband, You need to leave. I have a child here. The dispatcher is asking Ebony what's going on. And she tells the dispatcher that we just had a dispute and I want him to leave. Now she also told the dispatcher that they were married, but she no longer wanted to be in this dispute with her husband. At one point in the call, you can hear Ebony say that her husband could come back another day, that she wanted him gone before the situation escalated. But as the dispatcher continued asking questions, you can hear Ebony explaining that the argument had gotten out of hand. She's explaining to the dispatcher that she is attempting to avoid the situation becoming even worse. Now you could hear Ebony speaking directly to her husband while trying to convince him to leave the condo peacefully. The dispatcher is still gathering more information about the situation, and this would include details about the condo complex and the people involved. At one point during the call, she stated, quote, we had an argument. He is getting all of his stuff. I just want him to leave before this escalates. But as the conversation continued, the dispatcher asked whether there were any weapons in the home. Ebony responded that her husband did not currently have any weapons on him. However, there were weapons inside the home. And you can hear Ebony confirm that there was a firearm in the bedroom. Now she told the dispatcher that the gun was not locked up. She also stated that it had not been used, she had not been directly threatened with the gun during the argument. While the dispatcher is gathering all of this information, moments later, the call suddenly took a horrifying turn, and there was a series of gunshots that could be heard through the 911 call. After those gunshots rang out, Ebony Byram never returned to the phone. While this violent situation was unfolding, her 16-year-old son was inside his bedroom playing an online video game with a friend. According to reports, he was engaged in this gaming session when he suddenly heard multiple gunshots throughout the home. The sounds immediately interrupted the game and created panic inside the home. After hearing the gunshots, Ebony's 16-year-old son reportedly opened his bedroom door to see what was happening. And as soon as he stepped out of his bedroom, he was faced with a horrifying scene. Both his mother and his stepfather, Hal Byron, were lying on the floor inside the residence. Just minutes earlier, his mother had been on the phone with 911 calmly asking for help and trying to prevent this argument from escalating. But approximately seven minutes after Ebony placed that original 911 call, her son also contacted 911. Reports also state that the friend that he had been playing the video game with called 911 as well after hearing the gunshots during their gaming session. But by the time Ebony's son made this call, the deputies from the Macomb County Sheriff's Department had already been dispatched to the condo in response to Ebony's earlier report of a domestic dispute involving her husband, Halbiram. When deputies arrived at the residence and entered the condo, they discovered Ebony lying dead on the bedroom floor. And investigators later confirmed that Ebony had been shot multiple times during the incident. The scene inside that home reflected the violent escalation that Ebony had tried to stop only mere moments earlier with the 911 dispatcher. Nearby Halbiram was also found lying on the floor suffering from a severe gunshot wound that entered his head. Despite the seriousness of the injury, Hal was still alive. Authorities also discovered a forty caliber handgun lying on the floor next to Hal. What investigators later determined was that the firearm belonged to Hal and it was legally registered to him. But as investigators processed the scene, what authorities concluded was that Hal Biram fired a total of ten fatal rounds during that incident that struck Ebony multiple times. According to investigators, after shooting his wife, Hal then turned the firearm on himself in an apparent attempt to fatally harm himself following murdering his wife. This was a failed attempt at a murder suicide. What authorities had was the key piece of evidence that shocking nine one one call. Let's take a listen.

SPEAKER_11 17:18

Okay, work for what? You know the bottom. It wasn't quite a bit of a well. Hello. Hello. Hello.

SPEAKER_05 18:02

Maybe there. Following the shooting inside the condo, investigators begin piecing together what happened during the final moments of Ebony's life. And according to investigators, the couple had reportedly been arguing over financial issues before the deadly situation escalated. The dispute inside the home had become increasingly intense, which ultimately led Ebony to contact 911 in an attempt to prevent things from getting any worse. What investigators later concluded was that while Ebony was still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, Hal Biram went into the bedroom where the firearm was located. And during the call, what Ebony had already informed dispatchers that there was a gun inside the bedroom. That particular firearm had not been locked up. But also, according to authorities, Hal retrieved that weapon during the argument. The evidence collected at the scene reportedly showed that Hal fired multiple rounds at Ebony during the argument. What investigators determined was that after shooting his wife, Hal then turned the gun on himself in an apparent attempt to take his own life. This violent attack happened mere moments after Ebony calmly spoke with the 911 dispatcher, and she asked for help, getting her husband to leave the home before this argument took a tragic turn. After deputies arrived at the residence, Hal Byron was found alive but suffering from a self inflicted gunshot wound. The emergency responders rushed him to the hospital where he remained in serious condition, he was unconscious while receiving medical treatment for his injury. Meanwhile, investigators continued processing the crime scene and reviewing the evidence connected to the shooting. Now although Hal was in the hospital and he was unable to speak at the time. Investigators continued reviewing the evidence connected to the shooting. Three weeks after Ebony was murdered, Hal Byron was formally charged from his hospital bed. Despite his medical condition, court proceedings continued to move forward as prosecutors officially charged him in connection to his wife's death. Authorities charged forty four year old Hal Byron with first degree murder. The court ordered that Halbiram be held without bond as the case against him continued moving forward through the legal system. What investigators and prosecutors maintain was that the shooting was a result of a domestic dispute when Ebony wanted Hal to leave the home so that the situation would not escalate. This was a trigger and a tipping point for Hal, and he was not going to leave that home. The stakes were high for him. He knew that Ebony wanted out of the marriage. It wasn't working. She was being surveilled. There were financial issues, and Hal was verbally and physically abusive. But what happened inside that condo was On October 1st was a culmination of a pressure cooker of marital issues that boiled over. Let's take a listen.

SPEAKER_09 22:16

This is so sad. The Macomb County Sheriff has obtained a murder warrant against Ebony Byron's 44-year-old husband, Hal, in her shooting death early Saturday morning. A shooting committed while the victim was on the phone asking police for help. Guy Gordon joins us now with that chilling 911 call. Good evening, Guy.

SPEAKER_06 22:35

Good evening, Carmen. The sheriff releasing that 911 tape to us this afternoon. Only the discussions between Ebony Viram and the dispatcher, not the actual shots. He's doing that out of sensitivity to the woman's son. But it is clear from listening to this three and a half-minute tape that she never saw this attack coming. You can even hear her husband in the background. He does not sound agitated or violent. She calmly explains to the dispatcher that she needs police assistance, and then she calmly asks her husband to leave.

SPEAKER_10 23:06

Another day, another time. Any weapon for the home?

SPEAKER_11 23:36

Okay, where's the weapon at?

SPEAKER_07 23:39

And as our dispatcher was gathering the information, um, multiple gunshots were heard. Uh and the phone went dead.

SPEAKER_06 23:48

Just a 10-second pause before 11 shots in all. Ten for Ebony, and after a short pause, an 11th shot. Self-inflicted. Three minutes later, a call from the woman's 16-year-old son.

SPEAKER_07 24:02

Who indicated that uh he he heard lots of gunshots. He opened his door and he looked and he saw his mother and stepfather uh on the ground. Um at that point, our our dispatcher then had to uh communicate with the young man to get him out of the home safely.

SPEAKER_06 24:18

They actually didn't know if perhaps that there was another gunman in the house because there had been so many shots fired, so they had to walk him through a safe exit. So uh very difficult. The husband is currently in a guarded hospital room. He is unconscious uh due to this gunshot wound that passed to his neck and into his head. If and when he regains consciousness, he'll be arraigned on those charges. We're live. I'm Guy Gordon, local for Covenant Democrat.

SPEAKER_09 24:45

Guy, do we know how the son is doing tonight?

SPEAKER_06 24:47

Yeah, the sheriff says, as you can imagine, uh he is traumatized. He is with family members who are seeking uh some therapy uh for him. And one of the weird twists of this, he was playing uh an online video game with a friend. The friend heard the shot. He also called 911.

SPEAKER_09 25:06

All right, our guy Gordon reporting for his line.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

The trial proceedings for Hal Byron began on March 13, 2018. Jury selection was preparing to begin when the case suddenly took an unexpected turn. Before those proceedings could escalate to the full trial, Hal interrupted the courtroom and he admitted that he shot Ebony. Because of that admission, the case never developed into a lengthy traditional murder trial. With weeks of witness testimony and evidence presentations before a jury, Hal Byron chose to enter a no contest plea to the first degree murder charge and felony firearm charges. Now, the decision immediately changed the direction of the case and eliminated the need for prosecutors to fully present the evidence during a contested trial. But according to prosecutors, Hal's decision to enter the plea was partly intended to spare both families from having to relive the horrific details of the murder. The case had already caused devastating emotional damage to everyone connected to Ebony, especially considering the disturbing circumstances surrounding that 911 call and the violence that unfolded inside the home, with Ebony's 16-year-old son being inside the home and hearing the murder as it unfolded. Even before the no contest plea was entered, the case had already moved through several earlier court proceedings during 2017. And during the preliminary hearings, the prosecutors presented evidence connected to the shooting as they worked to move the case towards trial. Now one of the most emotional moments during those hearings reportedly came from the actual 911 call that was played in court. The recording captured Ebony calmly asking for help only moments before the gunshots rang out that ultimately took her life. The prosecution continued presenting evidence gathered from the crime scene and the investigation. Now would authorities maintain that the domestic argument between the couple escalated into deadly violence after Hal had been asked several times to leave the home. But in retaliation, Hal retreated to the bedroom and retrieved the firearm and shot his wife fatally. The evidence presented during the hearings ultimately pushed the case towards the march 2018 court proceedings where Hal formally admitted full responsibility for the murder. In the aftermath of the shooting, the emotional impact of the case continued affecting everyone connected to Ebony's life. Her sixteen-year-old son, who had heard the gunshots and witnessed the aftermath, but according to reports, he later moved out of state to live with his biological father. Family members also arranged counseling services for him in hopes of helping him cope with the trauma he experienced that night. Those close to him said that he had not been the same since losing his mother. The emotional toll of the case extended beyond Ebony's family. Reports stated that the dispatcher who handled Ebony's 911 call was granted several days of leave from work following the incident. The 911 dispatcher was mentally affected by hearing this woman being gunned down on that call, making this call one of the most heartbreaking pieces of evidence connected to this case. Neighbors in the community were also shocked by the violent events that unfolded inside that condo. People viewed the marriage between Ebony and Hal as loving, and they had not noticed any obvious signs of serious trouble. But no one really knows what happens behind the closed doors. Neighbors described Ebony as quiet and unassuming. While Hal was also described as friendly, soft spoken, and polite. There had been no prior domestic violence calls made to the couple's home before the shooting, and Hal had no criminal history. Despite the investigation and court proceedings, the exact motive behind the shooting remains unclear. But authorities believe that the couple had been arguing over financial issues well before the situation escalated. But there are many unanswered questions surrounding why Hal decided to carry out this attack. For Ebony's family, the loss left permanent emotional damage that continued long after the shooting itself. On the day of Hal's sentencing, further frustration was added for Ebony's loved ones when Hal Byron refused to appear in court, but the judge and deputies could not force him to attend because it was his legal right to refuse. Family members viewed his absence as another painful reminder of the control they believed that he continued trying to maintain over the situation. Ebony's family stated that the court process had been emotionally exhausting, with attorneys describing Hal as extremely uncooperative throughout the proceedings. During victim impact statements, Ebony's relatives spoke openly about the devastation caused by her murder. One family member stated that Hal did not have to shoot her, while another admitted that there were days they wished he had died alongside Ebony. There were other family members that expressed that although the sentence brought some level of closure, the pain would never fully disappear. One emotional statement that was directed at Hal saying, You broke us in many ways that will never be repaired. So on April 11th, 2018, 44-year-old Hal Byron was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He also pleaded no contest to a felony firearms offense. For that offense, he received a minimum sentence of two years for the firearms conviction. Let's take a listen.

SPEAKER_08 33:10

Hal Byram tried to kill himself and has since pleaded no contest to the killing. But as Nick Monaselli reports tonight, Hal Byram has been uncooperative and refused to show up to his own sentencing.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

So as you mentioned, the defendant Hal Byrum refused to come to court for his sentencing today. That is his right. The deputies and the judge can't make him come to court, but the victim's family saw that as yet another slap in the face. He survived. Ebony's sister says a slow and painful death because how Byrum, seen here in earlier court hearings, was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The family says Byram's life sentence does help. It does bring closure, but there will always be a wound that will never heal.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

I know that you didn't want to show up because you know that you hurt my family. And I know that you see that you hurt my family really badly. You broke us so many ways that I would never be able to read it.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

In Mount Clement, Nick Monaselli.

SPEAKER_08 35:07

And making matters worse, Ebony's now 17-year-old son was in the condo when she was killed. Family members say he's in Texas with his father, but he hasn't been the same since this happened.

SPEAKER_05 35:18

The impact of Ebony's murder is that it turned a private domestic dispute into a public example of how fast domestic violence can become lethal when control, separation, refusal to leave, and firearm access collides. The emotional impact was devastating because Ebony's final attempt to protect herself and her child was recorded in real time. Her family had to sit in court and hear the 911 call documenting her final moments. That matters because this was not just a statistic. This was a woman recognizing real danger, calling for help, and still being killed before help could reach her. The domestic violence implication is clear. Danger often spikes when a victim tries to create distance, set a boundary, force separation, or to remove the abuser from the home. Because Ebony was not asking for a fight. She was trying to de-escalate. But her husband's refusal to leave shows the control dynamic. He did not accept her boundary, her fear, or her right to safety. This case also shows how the home can become the most dangerous place for victims. Half of female homicide victims are killed by a current or former partner. The firearm piece in this case is crucial because Ebony was trapped in the same home with a partner who was armed. Intimate partner homicides in the US are committed with a firearm. And more than 70 women are shot and killed by an intimate partner in an average month. What Ebony Byram's murder exposes is the lie that domestic violence is just private. That is just between two people. It is not. Domestic violence is a public safety issue. It is family trauma. It is childhood trauma. It is courtroom trauma. And it is also a community trauma. Because Ebony did what victims are told to do. She called for help. When an abuser has access to a weapon and refuses to surrender control, mere minutes can become the difference between survival and murder. Because Ebony's death was not just about a man who snapped. It was about entitlement, control, refusal to accept a boundary, and the lethal danger that can appear when a woman says you need Italy. When we think about the horrific murder of Ebony Byron, we have to sit with the weight of what happened, not to rush past it, and not to reduce it to just another headline. Not to allow the details to become just another murder case or another tragedy that people hear about for a moment, feel some type of way, and then move on from. Because Ebony was a woman. She was a nurse. She was a mother. She was a loved one. She had siblings. She had parents. And she spent her life giving back to others. She was a person with the life that existed before that horrific 911 call. The gunfire, the courtroom trial, before her name became attached to the worst thing that could have ever happened to her. Ebony Byram was inside her home. This was a place that should have been safe. A place where a person should be able to be at peace, rest, raise their children without fear. But on that day, her home went from being a place of peace to becoming a crime scene. And Ebony was on the phone with 911 trying to get help. She was trying to create a distance from the person who was causing the problem. She was trying to get her husband to leave. She was not asking for a fight. She was not asking for chaos. She was not asking for violence. But she was asking for a boundary to be respected. She wanted him gone. But for some reason, asking someone to leave is a trigger for some people. And that detail that matters. When we talk about domestic violence, people often ask the wrong questions. They ask, why didn't she leave? Why did she marry him? Why did she choose him? But let me say this if you could stare into a magic ball to see how your life is going to play out. I guarantee you that Ebony would have never chosen how had she known that her life would end. We'll blame women for choosing the wrong man. We'll blame women for being victims. But the onus is never on the man who murders, who stalks, who controls, who doesn't know how to respect boundaries. And let me add, who is emotionally immature and cannot regulate their emotions. The onus starts there. So instead of asking, why didn't she leave? Why did she marry this person? Do you really think that when you're dating someone and you marry someone that you actually know how this is going to end? Ebony did call. Ebony did reach out for help. And Ebony, she established a clear boundary. And when she called 911, she was calm. But she was not yelling, she was talking to her husband calmly. I just want you to leave. Not tonight. It's one o'clock in the morning. And still she was killed. This is the devastating reality of intimate partner violence. It is not always things that you can just see. It is not always visible to the outside world. It does not always look like what people think it will look like. Sometimes it builds behind closed doors. Sometimes it's one disrespect and one apology. And then another disrespect. And then another apology. Sometimes it is profound good times and then walking on eggshells. And then disrespect and then good times. And then walking on eggshells. And then vacations. And then flowers. And back to good times. Wash, rinse, repeat. Sometimes it hides behind family photos. Sometimes it hides behind smiling pictures on social media. Behind a big house in a suburban neighborhood. Behind the illusion of what looks like a normal life. And then when the victim finally says no more, the anger intensifies. It is about control. It is about entitlement. It is about the belief that one person has the right to dominate someone else's choices, their movements, their body, their safety, their freedom. And when that control is challenged, when a woman says leave, when she says, I'm calling for help. That can become one of the most dangerous moments of her life. Not because she caused the violence, not because she provoked it, not because she made the wrong choice in the man, but because an abusive person sees her boundary as a threat to their control. And this is what makes cases like Ebony's so haunting. Because Ebony's final moments were not private. Her fear was heard. And her family, her son, had to live with the knowledge of what happened in that home. Her loved ones had to sit with the pain of knowing that Ebony reached out for help and that help did not arrive in time to save her. That kind of loss just does not end when a life sentence is handed down. The justice system handed down the appropriate punishment, but there is no sentence that will give Ebony her life back. There is no courtroom ruling that restores her voice that was snuffed out. There's no prison term that erases what her son, her family, and her community had to endure. Sometimes the most dangerous person in a woman's life is not a stranger, not a random person, but it is often the person who claims to love her, who took a vow to protect her. So as we say Ebony's name, we should not only remember how she died, we should remember what her murder teaches us. Ebony Byrum deserved more than the final moments filled with fear. She deserved peace, she deserved safety. She deserved to grow old. She deserved to see her son graduate from high school. She deserved a bright future. And she deserved to survive. My heart goes out to Ebony Byron's family and to her son. This never should have happened. Ebony Byron, may your sweet and beautiful soul forever, rest in peace. If you or someone you love is experiencing domestic violence, or if you feel unsafe in your relationship, please know that help is available. You do not have to wait until things become physical or to reach out. Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline 247-365 at 1-800-799-SAFE. That is 1-800-799-7233. You can text the word start to 88-788. Or you may also visit thehotline.org. Your safety matters, your fear is valid, and support is available when you're ready. Thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of Senseless True Crime. We appreciate every listen, every message, and every story you send our way. You can reach the show anytime at senseless true crime at gmail.com. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook at senseless true crime podcasts. And until next time, stay safe, stay informed, and please take care of yourselves!